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	<title>Comments on: A value proposition, basic respect, whatever&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/</link>
	<description>social learning, open education, and petty battles with rivals over power and money...</description>
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		<title>By: Textbook torrents a-crashin&#8217;</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-14711</link>
		<dc:creator>Textbook torrents a-crashin&#8217;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-14711</guid>
		<description>[...] seeds of revolt are planted, and again I think this is a huge opportunity for open educators. OpenEd 09 had some good sessions relevant to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seeds of revolt are planted, and again I think this is a huge opportunity for open educators. OpenEd 09 had some good sessions relevant to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Indra Hatasura</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12579</link>
		<dc:creator>Indra Hatasura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 08:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12579</guid>
		<description>Thanks for sharing your writings and experience...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for sharing your writings and experience&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12271</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12271</guid>
		<description>Thanks for clarifying that Greg, I understand how these things go...

And for what it&#039;s worth, I agree with you (and with Andre&#039;s point in his comment above), that when it comes to questions of openness and closed content, it is as much a question of policy as technology. I also know that archiving courses is fraught with complexity. (It must be even more difficult to make materials available, because I know we archive online courses in our LMS for a number of years for audit purposes, but obviously in a way that is not accessible to users). 

That said, I guess that&#039;s why I think it is preferable to put materials in open, relatively lightweight content management frameworks whenever possible - as you know, it&#039;s the security and multi-role access (yes, usually specified as a requirement by the users) that makes things complicated.

I&#039;m heartened to know that you are taking these thorny questions of openness into account in your development process. Feel free to drop by the Abject any time, Greg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for clarifying that Greg, I understand how these things go&#8230;</p>
<p>And for what it&#8217;s worth, I agree with you (and with Andre&#8217;s point in his comment above), that when it comes to questions of openness and closed content, it is as much a question of policy as technology. I also know that archiving courses is fraught with complexity. (It must be even more difficult to make materials available, because I know we archive online courses in our LMS for a number of years for audit purposes, but obviously in a way that is not accessible to users). </p>
<p>That said, I guess that&#8217;s why I think it is preferable to put materials in open, relatively lightweight content management frameworks whenever possible &#8211; as you know, it&#8217;s the security and multi-role access (yes, usually specified as a requirement by the users) that makes things complicated.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m heartened to know that you are taking these thorny questions of openness into account in your development process. Feel free to drop by the Abject any time, Greg.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Ritter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12269</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Ritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12269</guid>
		<description>Brian, I didn&#039;t even know I was sending you a trackback! :-) Here at Blackboard we use a wiki (Atlassian&#039;s very excellent &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Confluence&lt;/a&gt;) for both client knowledge bases and internal project tracking, requirements, etc. Staff also have our own (internal-facing) personal wiki space. One of my users for my personal wiki is as a notebook for capturing &quot;big ideas&quot; from the industry that may be useful as a reference later. Apparently, Confluence has a trackback feature that I didn&#039;t know about, though! Guess I should have RTFM, eh?

Andre Malan&#039;s problem, that you describe in your post, is not uncommon. It might interest you to know that there&#039;s nothing in the Blackboard Learn product that requires a course to be inaccessible to a student after it is completed. It&#039;s quite simple for an institution to continue to provide access to courses, and in fact that&#039;s the &lt;i&gt;default&lt;/i&gt; behavior of the product! 

Institutions have to take some action (e.g. disable/remove/archive the course site, disable/remove the user account) for the user to no longer have access to the course. However, most institutions implement policies of that nature. There are many reasons for that, but the most prevalent is rather pragmatic: in a university-managed system, it&#039;s expensive and resource-consuming (from disk, database, and performance perspectives) to keep every course site for every section ever offered live and available in perpetuity. So most institutions implement some process where completed courses are archived offline after &lt;i&gt;x&lt;/i&gt; amount of time. 

Anyway, I think there&#039;s a lot of opportunity for change here -- both in institutional policy, in the scenarios that our product supports (or could support), and in how faculty select and make available educational resources. That&#039;s why I saved a link to your post in my notebook -- it&#039;s a story worth keeping in mind as we develop future versions. :-)

-- Greg Ritter (Director, Product Management, Blackboard Learn)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, I didn&#8217;t even know I was sending you a trackback! <img src='http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Here at Blackboard we use a wiki (Atlassian&#8217;s very excellent <a href="http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/" rel="nofollow">Confluence</a>) for both client knowledge bases and internal project tracking, requirements, etc. Staff also have our own (internal-facing) personal wiki space. One of my users for my personal wiki is as a notebook for capturing &#8220;big ideas&#8221; from the industry that may be useful as a reference later. Apparently, Confluence has a trackback feature that I didn&#8217;t know about, though! Guess I should have RTFM, eh?</p>
<p>Andre Malan&#8217;s problem, that you describe in your post, is not uncommon. It might interest you to know that there&#8217;s nothing in the Blackboard Learn product that requires a course to be inaccessible to a student after it is completed. It&#8217;s quite simple for an institution to continue to provide access to courses, and in fact that&#8217;s the <i>default</i> behavior of the product! </p>
<p>Institutions have to take some action (e.g. disable/remove/archive the course site, disable/remove the user account) for the user to no longer have access to the course. However, most institutions implement policies of that nature. There are many reasons for that, but the most prevalent is rather pragmatic: in a university-managed system, it&#8217;s expensive and resource-consuming (from disk, database, and performance perspectives) to keep every course site for every section ever offered live and available in perpetuity. So most institutions implement some process where completed courses are archived offline after <i>x</i> amount of time. </p>
<p>Anyway, I think there&#8217;s a lot of opportunity for change here &#8212; both in institutional policy, in the scenarios that our product supports (or could support), and in how faculty select and make available educational resources. That&#8217;s why I saved a link to your post in my notebook &#8212; it&#8217;s a story worth keeping in mind as we develop future versions. <img src='http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&#8211; Greg Ritter (Director, Product Management, Blackboard Learn)</p>
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		<title>By: A Value Proposition for Openness &#171;</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12239</link>
		<dc:creator>A Value Proposition for Openness &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12239</guid>
		<description>[...] 30, 2009 &#183; Leave a Comment  Brian Lamb links to blog post by Andre Malan on the limitations of Blackboard. Both Lamb and Malan point out how [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 30, 2009 &middot; Leave a Comment  Brian Lamb links to blog post by Andre Malan on the limitations of Blackboard. Both Lamb and Malan point out how [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12235</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12235</guid>
		<description>&quot;a network of peers, backed by knowledge of, availability and experience with high quality resources?&quot;

Careful Andre. You&#039;re getting dangerously close to describing an approach that would actually support real life-long learning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a network of peers, backed by knowledge of, availability and experience with high quality resources?&#8221;</p>
<p>Careful Andre. You&#8217;re getting dangerously close to describing an approach that would actually support real life-long learning.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre Malan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12234</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre Malan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12234</guid>
		<description>You are right Brian, this is completely not about Blackboard or other LMS systems, I think my reaction yesterday was a bit knee-jerk. After all, any LMS developer&#039;s first reaction when quizzed on openness will be &quot;being closed is what was in the requirements&quot;. That is what the administration wants and that is what the LMS delivers. The shift really has to come in terms of what value universities believe that they provide. Is it a degree? Or is it a network of peers, backed by knowledge of, availability and experience with high quality resources?

I think the &quot;experience with&quot; part is something that is not often thought about and that neutralizes a lot of the force behind “But everyone else, even the students at other schools, will have access to the same resources!” I worked with those particular resources for 4-8 months, giving me a much greater ability to utilize them than anybody from a different school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right Brian, this is completely not about Blackboard or other LMS systems, I think my reaction yesterday was a bit knee-jerk. After all, any LMS developer&#8217;s first reaction when quizzed on openness will be &#8220;being closed is what was in the requirements&#8221;. That is what the administration wants and that is what the LMS delivers. The shift really has to come in terms of what value universities believe that they provide. Is it a degree? Or is it a network of peers, backed by knowledge of, availability and experience with high quality resources?</p>
<p>I think the &#8220;experience with&#8221; part is something that is not often thought about and that neutralizes a lot of the force behind “But everyone else, even the students at other schools, will have access to the same resources!” I worked with those particular resources for 4-8 months, giving me a much greater ability to utilize them than anybody from a different school.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12231</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12231</guid>
		<description>Greg - I remember you from the glorious early days of my ed tech blogging journey, back when you had Ten Reasons Why you were right. We should have another beer sometime. But the link referenced in your trackback, pointing to something which I gather discusses my post, is itself closed off from me. I wish I knew what you were saying, especially since I presume you are sharing my views with others inside Blackboard. 

Jim - I&#039;ll leave the bashing to the professionals. Your reaction to the term &#039;value-added&#039; prods me to confess that I very nearly wrote about the competitive advantage of openness as offering a &quot;superior product&quot;... It was a horrifying moment, almost made me trash the whole post. So thinking in this way is something of dangerous game for me, and I figure it&#039;s only a matter of time before I step on a landmine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg &#8211; I remember you from the glorious early days of my ed tech blogging journey, back when you had Ten Reasons Why you were right. We should have another beer sometime. But the link referenced in your trackback, pointing to something which I gather discusses my post, is itself closed off from me. I wish I knew what you were saying, especially since I presume you are sharing my views with others inside Blackboard. </p>
<p>Jim &#8211; I&#8217;ll leave the bashing to the professionals. Your reaction to the term &#8216;value-added&#8217; prods me to confess that I very nearly wrote about the competitive advantage of openness as offering a &#8220;superior product&#8221;&#8230; It was a horrifying moment, almost made me trash the whole post. So thinking in this way is something of dangerous game for me, and I figure it&#8217;s only a matter of time before I step on a landmine.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12228</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12228</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s wrong with simply bagging on the CMS/LMS? :) 

Well, the abject shows the way, and I think you get at the crux of the matter via the inimitable Andre Malan---how can having access to the work you have done and the resources you have been &quot;given&quot; not be seen as a basic right of one&#039;s education and part of the &quot;value&quot; one pay&#039;s for.  (Value is in quotes because whenever I say that word I think of &quot;value added&quot; and want to puke on my keyboard.) Your frame for this is excellent, and it disembodies thi argument from a technology and returns the onus to administration, professors, and students everywhere, who, I would argue, viz--viz the closed systemic logic of most LMSs have been able to ignore this simple idea of respect and access in the name of security and some notion of proprietary knowledge.  And I think that is where the real issue leads to, what does it mean to make learning and sharing a proprietary act when it can be accomplished through cast networks for the sweat of one&#039;s brow (which isn&#039;t free, but ain&#039;t $100,000 either---this is in US according the the cost of undergraduate costs).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s wrong with simply bagging on the CMS/LMS? <img src='http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Well, the abject shows the way, and I think you get at the crux of the matter via the inimitable Andre Malan&#8212;how can having access to the work you have done and the resources you have been &#8220;given&#8221; not be seen as a basic right of one&#8217;s education and part of the &#8220;value&#8221; one pay&#8217;s for.  (Value is in quotes because whenever I say that word I think of &#8220;value added&#8221; and want to puke on my keyboard.) Your frame for this is excellent, and it disembodies thi argument from a technology and returns the onus to administration, professors, and students everywhere, who, I would argue, viz&#8211;viz the closed systemic logic of most LMSs have been able to ignore this simple idea of respect and access in the name of security and some notion of proprietary knowledge.  And I think that is where the real issue leads to, what does it mean to make learning and sharing a proprietary act when it can be accomplished through cast networks for the sweat of one&#8217;s brow (which isn&#8217;t free, but ain&#8217;t $100,000 either&#8212;this is in US according the the cost of undergraduate costs).</p>
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		<title>By: Confluence: Greg Ritter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/2009/07/a-value-proposition-basic-respect-whatever/comment-page-1/#comment-12218</link>
		<dc:creator>Confluence: Greg Ritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.ubc.ca/brian/?p=1049#comment-12218</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;What&#039;s The Big Idea...&lt;/strong&gt;

Big ideas that would drastically change the way things are done in Blackboard.  Tear a hole in the walled garden&#039;s wall, aka super guest access  This implies that courses need simple URLs, e.g. blackboard.example.......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>What&#8217;s The Big Idea&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Big ideas that would drastically change the way things are done in Blackboard.  Tear a hole in the walled garden&#8217;s wall, aka super guest access  This implies that courses need simple URLs, e.g. blackboard.example&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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