RMST 495/520: Long Books

Hi Everyone!

My initial reaction to the book was that it is boring and I have no idea how I will be able to get through all the pages. I’m not quite used to reading this genre of books and it certainly does not help that I have a terrible attention span. However, what I did like was that the story was told through Garcia Madero’s diary as this journal entry style made it easier to read. However, at times it felt very personal and I felt like I was invading his privacy even reading it.

For example, his sexual scenes were very descriptive and it was weird how he kept going from girl to girl. First it was the waitress in the storage room, then Maria, and then he was also thinking about Angelica. A lot of the details he mentioned felt irrelevant. It felt as if any woman he talked to the only thing he cared about or wanted from them is sex. He also acts like he is “the man” and is above others around him but he just is not. For example, when Garcia Madero, Maria, and Lupe were walking and Maria said, “If Lupe’s pimp shows up you’re defending us.” He thought he would be able to impress Maria but later goes on to say he hopes he doesn’t show up after hearing about him.

It made me wonder if the author intended to make him so unbearable and unlikeable. Although I’m not surprised that a seventeen year old boy is sexist, it was definitely unpleasant to read. As the book went on, it felt less about the visceral realists and the poetry movement and more about the personal story of Garcia Madero’s personality change. Even when the poets did meet up there wasn’t much discussing poems or how to advance the movement. Another aspect I did not like was that it felt like there were so many names and people being thrown at me that I was not able to keep up with who is who and who serves what purpose.

Furthermore, he mentions how he only went to Law school because of his Aunt and Uncle however, his passion lies in Literature and Poetry. This resonated with me because I majored in Political Science to get into Law School because of peer pressure and I honestly do not want to go to law school whatsoever.

Los detectives salvajes in this first part have overwhelmed me with lists of poets and books that seem endless, a vertiginous number of lists that go round and round until you get tired of them. At first, I vaguely considered keeping these lists in mind, for example, the list of books that Juan García Madero identifies on 11 de Noviembre; but after a few more pages and a few more lists, including those of streets and friends, I gave up and preferred to refer to Umberto Eco (2010) and his idea of considering that “la lista es un género literario más extendido de los que se cree” (17).  – The list is a widespread genre that is commonly believed*-, and it seems that Bolaños is shouting for his part in this genre.

On 22 de Noviembre, I don’t have any interest in understanding, contrasting, refusing, or to think in the list of poets and the gender classification made by San Epifanio. However, considering Eco, El vértigo de las istas, (The infinity of lists), I believe that a possible perspective on these lists is “transmitir el sentido de la inmensidad … expresar lo indecible” (18), referring to quantities, of the poetry and poets known by García Madero y San Epifanio, a practical or pragmatic lists, that “[they] refer to objects in the outside world and have the purely practical purpose of naming and listing them […] record things that are really existent and known” (113); nevertheless, and in the same practical lists that Eco refers, Garcia Madero, Sand Epifanio, the sisters Font and the other compinches on los detectives salvajes, their pragmatic list turn on poetic lists.

Eco proposes that poetic lists are those where “los objetos que nombra no tienen que existir necesariamente” (19) —the objects listed do not necessarily have to exist*—; lists containing “… la imposibilidad de expresarlo todo y sugiere[n], pues, el vértigo de un ‘etcétera’” and avoid continuing hasta el infinito, like San Efinafio’s list.

These los detectives salvajes lists, likewise, collections of poets’ names and titles of poetry and literature books, make me think of a curiosity cabinet and the first experience of seeing it, perhaps an astonishing place in the first view, but after some hours, or some pages reading, those seeing, or reading, are similar. I take a breath, close my eyes, and the cabinet is for me a better place to explore than Garcia Madero and the other characters’ lists. Why? For me, their lists turn into a chaotic shape. And, seeing from the Eco’s perspective, García Maderos and other lists could be lists that refer to “excesos coherentes”(30), indicating “una poética de la lista por la lista, redactada por puro amor a la lista, de la lista por exceso” (23).  List coherent by excess. (254). I enjoy another kind ot lists!

Here, the Eco book and conference about lists.

Eco, Umberto. (2009). The infinity of lists. Rizzoli International Publications, Inc.

Eco, Umberto. (2010). El vértigo de las listas. (Conference). Revista Científica de Información y Comunicación 2011, 8, pp. 15-34.

*My translation of the Spanish version.

I have definitely read worse books than The Savage Detectives. In one sense, I’m glad that the book is mandatory because otherwise I probably would have either DNF’d it, or at least put it back on the shelf for “later” (a later that would never come because it would be included in my annual Facebook Marketplace sell off).

I don’t tend to love a journal entry writing style, but I thought it flowed well and the prose was well-written. I’m interested in Bolaño’s choice to make the main character so unlikeable in this section. While it does make it difficult to care about what happens to him, an unlikeable main character also allows more space and potential for growth. What happens to how you read the book when you, as reader, are less emotionally invested in the characters? The plot was slow but the overall tone didn’t feel like it was.

In terms of the act (/experience) of reading, I like the cover and the texture of the cover of the Picador edition. Physically, it’s a great read and is nice to hold: I love a book that’s floppy. It’s a long book, so I understand that having thin pages reduces its width and weight, but it is a little annoying that you can see the shadow of the text from the opposite page as you read.

Another little quirk I noticed is that the last line of the novel (I swear I’m not one of those controversial readers who reads the last line of the book first, I was just trying to check the page count) is on the literal last page of the book, which I feel like I don’t see often, either because of author bios or publishing ads or blank pages. I feel like it’s cool for the math to have worked out so exactly when they were printing the signatures to make the book.

I see from some of our classmates’ blog posts that I am not alone in being slow to warm up to the novel. But, The Savage Detectives is well-rated on the internet (4.5/5 stars on Goodreads, 5/5 on Indigo.ca, 4.03/5 on Storygraph), so I have faith that even if the pace doesn’t quite pick up, that the story will start to be received better the further in we get.

I expect it will be kind of like when you recommend a new television series to someone else, and you promise them that it gets good, they just have to “make it through” the first few episodes. I am waiting for this novel to change my mind, get good, and earn its 4/5 star rating.

My first impressions about the novel were rather positive. I enjoy reading the first 124 pages because of its realistic and honest language ( although at times was corny and  cold) , so it was a good start for this long journey that Bolano is sending us of.

The first part is all about Garcia Madero. To me , he is not an unlikeable protagonist but i can see why some of my classmates feel weird-out or simply do not know what to think about him. Garcia’s voice is innocent , curious but at the same time ,he is also cold and sexual ( he is a teenager after all , we had been there with our hormones killing each other). Teenagers are not very likeable in real life so i accept the character how he is. Intentionally or not , he is trying to construct his own  identity  as he is submerging in this Mexican literature world that sometimes is chaotic for him and makes him to feel lost in his own city. This can be an indication of the developing of identity and purpose in a society where classes exist and what happens to those writers that do not belong to the  hegemony.

He is a ” savage detective” for how great of an observer he is. He is trying to get a sense of this new world (sexuality , poetry , even adulthood)  by recording everything he sees or hears. He takes what his older colleagues tell them ,but he develops his own conclusions as when he deducted what was going on November 13 and the marihuana deliveries (24). I would say that he is “savage” because he does not develop polished comments or thoughts. He just says what he thinks and wonders around the truth of his feelings as when he was trying to understand if he himself was “deflowered” too. What exactly means being a virgin?  he pondered ( 27).

The sexuality aspect was an interesting one. It feels like a moment of initiation into this club of poets. I appreciate the way how the author depicted it as less romantic experience but rather cold and explicit. His first sexual encounter is clumsy but effective on him. He does not fall in love with Brigida for “helping him out” and he is actually indifferent to her. He is also portrayed as someone submissive who was told what to do which i find to be a very interesting way to portray masculinity in this young writer. Maybe that was an experiment to prove if he is ready to enter the  environment of the visceral realists.

Discussion question:

What does this part of the novel tell us about  the social worlds/classes in the literature world in Mexico or anywhere in Latin America?

Hi everyone, in my version of “The Savage Detectives” by Roberto Bolano, I read up to page 140, which took me to the end of Part 1. I’m not sure if everyone else felt this way, but the entire time I was reading, the most prominent feeling for myself was absolute exhaustion. Juan García Madero is one of the most stretched-thin characters ever. Well most of the time anyways, there are some days where he writes that he does absolutely nothing except staying in bed reading and writing. However majority of his days are spent with different faces like Arturo and Lima, who at first, he was chasing in a slightly desperate manner trying to prove to them and himself that he belonged to the Visceral Realists. My feeling of exhaustion on behalf of Madero first came from me comparing my own life to his, especially considering he is only seventeen years old, and he’s staying out all night with people he’s just met, running from place to place on a whim, and I think about how unalike I am to Madero. I think there is intention from Bolano’s behalf to try and evoke those feelings because the idea of a poetic revolution is grand, time consuming and it feels like an “all or nothing” moment.

While Madero is not the most likeable or relatable character to me, I think there is a theme of confidence that evolves in the first part of the book. The first event of the book is his argument with Álamo over what a rispetto is and other poetry related terminology. From this incident onwards, there is an underlying purpose to Madero’s interactions, thoughts and actions; which is he wants to contribute to the Latin American revolution of poetry. Even though in the earlier pages of Part 1, Madero writes he is sure he will never see Lima or Arturo again and is uncertain of his status with the Visceral Realists, nonetheless, he is still practicing his poetry in public and putting himself out there every day.

The relationship between Madero and Quim is also quite unique and complex. In my reading, I think Madero and Quim are quite similar, which if I had to guess the inner thoughts of Madero, I don’t think that is something he would be keen on. When he first hears about Quim and then meets him, he thinks he is a crazy man. However, as his relationship with primarily María, as well as the whole family progresses, he learns more about Quim’s passions for poetry, and I think he develops his own opinion on him. I also found it very interesting that when Madero discovered that Quim was sexually involved with Lupe, he seemed to show judgement, when Madero has also found himself in morally grey areas pertaining to sex and relationships. It seems like there are some parts of Quim he admires, but his faults he shows resentment towards, maybe because it is just the parts of himself he despises as well.

Overall, I enjoyed the first part of the book, and considering how it ends, I am curious to see where Madero and the others flee to.

Photos: Front cover of the novel « The Savage Detectives » and image of author Roberto Bolaño

Genuine First Impressions of Robert Bolaño’s The Savage Detectives

Literally, « What in the world did I just read?! »… Allow the following images of facial reactions to help explain the wide range of emotions and impressions I’d felt and received whilst reading the first part of The Savage Detectives.

First and foremost, reading through the first part of the novel, I was genuinely shocked, confused, losing patience, bored, repulsed, reluctant, indifferent, disappointed and hopeful by what I had read. At other times, I asked myself a series of questions: Had I picked up the wrong book by accident? Why was this book assigned to us? What is the literary value of learning from this book? Am I in my right mind to read this book? Why are there so many characters being added or mentioned? I can’t keep up with who’s who. Who’s important? Whose not important? Where is the poetry? Why is there more description for romance, sex, skinny love and relationships than actual poetry? Can the author even write poetry, or does he examine poetry? Why does this feel more like a coming-of-age genre than crime and mystery? And most important of them all, where is the mystery? It’s called The Savage Detectives, so I get the « savage » part, but who is the « detective » and what is the « mystery » being solved?

There aren’t many things I like, but many things that I did not like. However, what I found interesting is the level of female involvement in his life, specifically older women. As the narrative progresses, it constantly switches between the relationships among older women and in a way, he becomes an object to these women. To me, it is interesting that Lupe becomes a cause worth giving up their old life and fleeing for, but not as a voice worth hearing.

In-Class Discussion Question

« Is the main protagonist García Madero a victim of the Visceral Realists, or their most near-perfect creation of it? »

At first glance, it appears as if García Madero is undergoing a process of « coming-of-age » story arc, and he appears to be searching for himself, his identity, to belong to others, and to inform others who he is or becoming in the process. He is young, energized, inexperienced, hungry for meaning, attention and belonging, and easily vulnerable to others’ charisma, passion and attention. Despite the purpose of the literary and poetic movement of The Visceral Realists, the group offers Madero many things he lacks and seeks in the moment: access to romantic and sexual relationships with various women, to a higher purpose, to transgression, to a community and most importantly, to the formation of his identity. As the audience, we see how Madero changes himself eagerly throughout the dated journal entries: from « temporarily » taking a break from his studies in Law to joining a so-called poetry group, the Visceral Realists; to distanting himself from his family; to following the men of this group wherever they go day-in and day-out; to involving himself with the lavish lifestyle of the upper class; to helping certain women escape from the cruel dangers that lie asleep in Mexico City; and now to a life on the run. His thoughts and his inner world are restless, accumulative, experiential, constantly moving forward and toward something, but not knowing what that something is.

From one point of view, the Visceral Realists appear less of a movement that produces Mexican poetry, but rather produce identities. As the entries progress, Madero becomes less poetic, less involved in poetry, less reflective, less philosophical, and less articulative. In a sense, the Visceral Realists create another self in García Madero. The accumulation of sexual encounters, parties and meetings with whoever matters more than poetry itself. In the novel, they mentioned poets and certain poems, but they do not reflect, discuss and learn from them. Like a magazine accumulating many of the great works of other poets, the group is accumulating rebellious and eccentric experiences and identities amongst the young men. In other words, Madero is another product of being a man in the Visceral Realist: to behave in certain ways, to react, think and speak in certain ways and to blindly do things in certain ways. He moves and rebels not with the pen and mind, but with his body and the words of others in the Visceral Realist.

What has me questioning is how seamless García Madero’s character transformation is. Simply, there is no noticeable or grand moment where he recognizes loss. There is no event where he mourns what he is leaving behind (i.e., his family, the potential future to work as a lawyer, the potential to advance in social class, the potential to move out of poverty, dangers and crimes of his living environment, etc.). It feels deliberate that the author wrote the narrative in the absence of Madero feeling regret, guilt or grief. In a way, Madero often observes and follows the other members of the group, quickly internalizing the values and assimilating to their actions and behaviours.

I am a fourth year student of Romance Studies. I have been learning Italian for the past four years. The first film I made was in Amantea, Calabria and I have been making films and learning Italian ever since. I am also an avid criterion channel watcher. My relationship to stories is personally explored through film and theatre, which of course is reliant upon literature.

I feel rather open minded when it comes to my expectations for the course. I am curious about what insights others will draw from the novels they have chosen. What really matters to me is keeping an open mind and heart and listening to what others have to say. It is my first time in a course where I will be reading a novel as long as The Savage Detectives for the duration of the course. In that sense I expect to develop with the characters of the story. A lot can happen in four months so reading as a collective whilst growing in connection with the characters will hopefully allow for a deeper understanding of the text. Since I am about to graduate my greatest expectation is to enjoy being part of a classroom and embrace the process as it comes, however that takes form.

I honestly have not had the capacity to read for pleasure since the summer. My approach to choosing a long book to accompany The Savage Detectives is to refer to the authors that have brought me joy in other Romance Studies classes. Junot Diaz is an author I love. The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao and This is How You Lose Her are both works that I consumed with delight. I’m leaning towards Hopscotch but that novel gets abstract at points in a way that might make it hard to compare with The Savage Detectives. I’m not so sure at this point. Marie-Cheveux is an author I have felt seen by in her meditations on race and love. That’s the intersection I am most curious about.

I have been looking for my a-ha moment in choosing a novel to accompany The Savage Detectives. It has not come, but I am hopeful it will. I just want to find something so compelling I have no other choice than to really dig into. Ultimately, I hope to find the piece of literature that gives more than it takes.

Thanks for being here.

Harmela

I have to admit that I’m not quite sure what to think of this book so far. I got pulled into it right away – I quite enjoy the journal-entry-style-writing and I was interested following the story of García Madero’s shift from being a law student to joining a group of poets. The part in which I started to feel disinterested was when he started sharing either his or his friend’s sexual experiences. Some of it made me feel sick to my stomach, especially when they spoke about everyone’s interest in taking Angélica’s virginity.

While I understand that the book is set in 1975 Mexico, and is written by a 17-year-old boy, it was evidently very sexist and I was not only feeling disturbed by it, but I also just started to find it all to be boring. It felt like I had read 40 pages of the same thing over and over again and I was considering whether I should start skipping some pages (or at least paragraphs) because I didn’t feel like I needed to read about another man degrading another woman in bed. While this interest for sex never completely went away, it did feel like it at least started to include some other parts of his day, like searching for Ulises Lima and Arturo Belano in book stores, conversations with his aunt and uncle, etc.

I was starting to feel a bit confused around when García Madero got sick. I wondered if he was on drugs or if there were also some hallucinations happening for him too, especially when he was trying to call María. What Lima and Belano shared with him when they went to visit him about Quim pretending to be Angélica left me pondering what was actually true. Quim was referred to many times as not being “in his right mind,” (but then he refers to more people as not being in their “right mind” either) but I began to wonder whether there was something happening to García Madero himself? I’m not sure, I just noticed a bit of a shift in his emotions or thoughts as the story went on and I’m curious if anyone else experienced this.

I felt sad to hear about the situation that Lupe was in throughout the whole book and I’m curious to hear about what happens for her. While this book brought up many different emotions for me, I did still feel interested to know about where this story was going.

There were many parts that I felt like were unnecessary details to include and I didn’t understand their relevance, however whenever I felt this way, I reflected back on our first class and remembered that we would be diving into what long stories are and why they write them, so I am interested to learn more about this (I even find himself getting annoyed in movies sometimes, wondering why they made certain scenes as long as they did).

I tried to like it. I genuinely did. And at the end I did; somewhat. I hope that Bolaño’s intention with Garcia Madero’s epistolar writing in the first part of Los detectives salvajes (1998) was to generate some kind of disgust. I would not say this first part was boring; quite the contrary. It was full of feelings, maybe not the positive feelings one might expect from reading a novel, but feelings nonetheless.

I am amazed by the ability of Bolaño to make someone so unlikable. Garcia Madero reads as a type of person I’ve met many times throughout my academic life: he thinks he is better than everyone else in his life except the few people he chooses to deify and “toxically” admire (I’m looking at you Ulises). He is also a great example of machismo, a prime teen man ready to be groomed into the sexist, violent, Latin American society. Ignoring the sex-obsessed journal writing, not unexpected coming from a teen, Garcia Madero’s attitutde towards the women in his life is tough to read. I don’t say shocking, because this is, again, not something that surprises. This is the “normal”, this is how we usually understand men to behave, specially in a Latin American culture built upon machismo. But there is this specific moment on the novel where I had to put it down, where I had to remind myself this wasn’t a real person, where I started to doubt Bolaño and his intentions with this character.

María nos ofreció una taza de café y luego se levantó y fue a la cocina. La seguí. Mientras esperaba que el agua hirviera la abracé por detrás y le dije que quería acostarme con ella. No me contestó. Quien calla otorga, pensé, y besé su cuello y su nuca. (165, my emphasis)

 

María offered us a cup of coffee and then got up and went to the kitchen. I followed her. As she was waiting for the water to boil I embraced her from behind and told her I wanted to sleep with her. She did not answer. Silence is giving, I thought, and I kissed her neck and nape (165, my translation, my emphasis)

This horrible scene exemplifies for me what García Madero is. Once again, I hope this book doesn’t portray García Madero as some kind of hero, at least not if his attitude and behavior does not change. For me, ignoring whatever intention of beliefs Bolaño had, this first part of the novel is a master class on how to write a hate-able character.

I am happy that Lupe was able to get away (for now, I have a feeling this will come back to haunt them), but part of me wishes García Madero was shot in that final scene of the book.

I hope I wasn’t the only person whose feelings about García Madero tended in this direction, I am curious to know what opinions did everyone else had on his character.