Determinism yielded a very interesting discussion near the end of last class time. Determinism is actually very similar to to a philosophical idea that alot of people have claimed Vonnegut to be operating under within many of his novels. This is a fatalistic viewpoint.
Fatalism generally refers to several of the following ideas:
- That free will does not exist, meaning therefore that history has progressed in the only manner possible.[1]This belief is very similar to predeterminism.
- That actions are free, but nevertheless work toward an inevitable end.[2] This belief is very similar tocompatibilist predestination.
- That acceptance is appropriate, rather than resistance against inevitability. This belief is very similar todefeatism.
I stole that off of wikipedia. After reading this, could we discuss whether or not, based on Vonnegut’s novel The Sirens of Titan, Vonnegut himself is a fatalist…
We came to some good points at the end of class that I look forward to developing more tomorrow.
If one subscribes to determinism it is not possible to hold people accountable for their actions. Determinism and free will are contradictory viewpoints and although it is less controversial to take one side over the other the two views can not be held at the same time. I still haven’t completed the novel so am unsure as to what Vonnegut is a believer of but right now it seems to be determinism. The way Rumfoord explains the rollercoaster of life is exactly how determinism works. All past events will shape the future and since you can’t change the past you can’t change the future. Even if you know when the coaster turns and dives it is impossible to get off.
Determinism is a very grim way of looking at life and Fern has an outlook on life that would also coincide with this. Vonnegut may be making the point that although the universe inevitably does what it wants there is no reason to get upset about it. Accept the situation and move on.
If Malachi hadn’t gone to see Rumford’s appearance in the beginning, would the same series of events happened? If perhaps, Rumfords decided not to talk to Constant in the first place would the same series of events happened? I would like to think that Malachi wouldn’t have been an idiot and made all the stupid decisions that led to losing his fortune. Based on the theory of determinism, it wouldn’t have mattered. On that theory, the same things would have happened. Constant’s “luck” would have still run out and he would have still lost his fortune. But on this principle, doesn’t that mean that even if Rumford did absolutely nothing after being chrono-synclastic-infundibulated the end result would be the same? What do you guys think?
I have to say, the end of this book left me with bitter taste in my mouth (thats not to say I didn’t enjoy it!). There are several points to me in the last few chapters that really illustrate Vonnegut’s fatalistic nature. What really stood out to me was the contents of the message Salo intended to deliver. The entirety of earths history was manipulated for the sole purpose of repairing Salo’s ship so he could deliver his message. The worst part of it was that Salo had not even reached his target galaxy yet and the message wasn’t intended for earth at all. The actions taken by the citizens of earth were all for one insignificant purpose, to replace a single spaceship part, which was made even more insignificant because of the accidental nature of Salo’s stay on Titan. It seems to me that a book like this could not have been written by someone who didn’t have a heavily fatalistic perspective.
On the other hand, I think it could be argued that the novel was more about the nature of the relationship between people in positions of power and their subjects. Having spent time in the military and being a prisoner of war, it is easy to see how he might have seen himself and his fellow soldiers as being no more than tools in a much larger scheme orchestrated by a higher power. He was apparently captured during the battle of the bulge after being unable to pull out with the rest of the american forces. This may have been part of his inspiration for the character Rumsfoord who dictated Malachi’s actions throughout the novel. Whether Rumsfoord intentions were good or bad, Malachi had to follow them. I think this novel could have been interpreted as Vonnegut expressing his distaste for being used. I am confused, however, with one line in the epilogue:
“The worst thing that could possibly happen to anybody,” she said, “would be to not be used for anything by anybody.” P.310
I’m not sure what he’s trying to say there, anyone have any thoughts?
I would definitely agree that Vonnegut’s writing comes from a fatalist perspective. Even if all you have to go on is Rumsfoord’s roller coaster comment. That is essentially fatalism. However, you could even argue the determinism perspective in this book as well, which if I remember correctly from my PHIL 100 course, was a similar idea in which one had free will, and could make their own choices, but their outcome would be the same. For example, when Rumsfoord tell’s Beatrice about how she and Constant will be on the same rocket ship to Mars and thats where she will get impregnated, she takes it upon herself to buy the only Earth rocketship, and does everything she can to make sure she’s not on it. However, Rumsfoord has already set up to have her kidnapped and put on a martian spaceship all the same. When we look at this section of the book it seems more like each person is manipulating life to suit themselves, but the outcome remains the same.
I would also have to agree that Vonnegut’s writing comes from a fatalistic point of view.Since RUmford can see into the future and has planned out entirely how the lives of Malachi, Bee and Chrono, and the Earthlings’ life are going to take place, it could be very easily seen as fatalism. However, maybe Vonnegut was trying to put it in the bigger spectrum of things and since there is a reason for everything that Malachi has to go through you could say that is can somehow be viewed as determinism. I think perhaps it can be viewed from a determinism point of view because the soul purpose of everything happening right now is because of how much of a selfish and bad person Malachi was on earth, and as a result of that all of this is taking place.
rethinking the meaning of life idea:
what if Vonnegut was trying to day that we should always go with the flow, so accepting our fate in a sense but also keeping in mind that we do and can influence our own fate.
So deep!!! I know. haha. But this book is amazing! I’m excited to dive into Cat’s Craddle.