Via RockRap.com–Hag shares his thoughts on his tour partner, Bob Dylan, as well as the “war on terror,” and country music…
“I don’t even consider myself country anymore. I identify more with what’s happening in rock and roll right now, and it’s the rock people who seem to identify with me the most, and treat me with some sort of respect. The country people are out to use my name for different things if they can, and the rock and roll people seem to just like me for who I am.”
‘To hell with country’
Our no-holds-barred interview with Merle Haggard
By Jim Reed
Since his earliest days as a rough and tumble juvenile delinquent, this
disturber of the peace has stood apart from the rest of the pack. A
sophisticated man who’s never shied away from being blunt if it suited his
purposes, he’s alternately a sensitive, emotional poet, and a plucky, gruff
curmudgeon.
As such, he’s come to personify the perfect distillation of the particular
brand of genius one might bestow upon the very greatest country and western
music stars.
As time moves on, and more and more of the genre’s legendary figures leave
this old wicked world, Haggard (an apropos surname if there ever was one)
trucks on, one of the last of a dying breed. After being essentially written
off by many of the power brokers of the very industry his hits helped create
and nurture, in 2003, he received no small amount of critical praise for
Unforgettable, an under-promoted disc that found him lending his own
inimitable style to a collection of American pop standards.
To those with only a cursory knowledge of his back catalog, this may have
seemed a crass attempt at cross-over success. However, those familiar with
his mercurial career recognized that CD as another in a long line of Haggard
releases (such as those devoted to tunes by Jimmie Rodgers or Bob Wills)
meant as love letters to artists whose work helped form Merle’s own unique
approach to songwriting.
Whether known as the protégé of (and sideman to) the late guitarist and
singer Buck Owens, or as the man who penned such timeless classics as
“Working Man Blues,” “I Threw Away The Rose,” “The Bottle Let Me Down,” and
the controversial “Okie From Muskogee,” or as an outspoken critic of the
Patriot Act, The Hag is one of a kind.
That’s probably why he was tapped by another one-of-a-kind superstar, Bob
Dylan, to share the bill with him on over 20 dates across the U.S.A.,
including this Sunday’s appearance at the Civic Center.
This is Merle’s second outing with Dylan (the first took place last spring),
and by all audience accounts, this pairing of crusty, idiosyncratic
songwriters is a match made in heaven.
Merle and I talked trash on the phone for what seemed like an hour, and it
was a real hoot. Here’s some of our chat.
Connect Savannah: Where are you at?
Merle Haggard: We’re in St. Louis tonight.
Connect Savannah: That must be a good town for you.
Merle Haggard: Well, it’s the middle of America! (laughs)
Connect Savannah: The posters for this tour read “all new show!” How much of
that is just a catchy slogan, and how much is real?
Merle Haggard: Well, I wing it every night. We’ve got no set list. It’s not
the same conversation or the same jokes, you know? I think Bob comes up with
a couple of different setlists for each tour, and I’m pretty sure the show
he’s doing is a little different from the one he did when we were together
last year. Basically, I just go out there and have fun, and so far it’s been
real, real good. Tickets are selling, and people are standing up on every
song.
Connect Savannah: During the first shows with Bob, a lot got made of the
tension between your two camps – Dylan being his inscrutable self, and you
perhaps rightfully expecting him to be a more gracious host. I got the
feeling that was blown out of proportion, and sure enough, you guys are back
out together. Has the ice thawed, or is he still unavailable for hang time?
Merle Haggard: Well, Bob’s a mysterious guy. He doesn’t really hang out with
anybody! That’s fine with me. I speak to him every once in a while. We
actually talked for about 20 or 30 minutes the other day, and that was the
first time that’s occurred. He’s very off to himself, you know. His persona
is rather serious, and I suppose it always has been. That hasn’t changed
just for me. I mean, he’s that way with everybody!
Connect Savannah: Many people see this tour as a celebration of two
counterculture icons. Yet if there’s a connection between you and Bob as
artists, I would think it has more to do with being your own men and
following your hearts. Does that assessment ring true, or do you feel
another type of bond with Dylan, or no bond at all?
Merle Haggard: Well, Bob and I are both songwriters. That’s where the bond
is. We admire each other’s work. He does a couple of my songs in his show
from time to time when I’m on tour with him. He does a rock version of “Mama
Tried,” and he does “Sing Me Back Home.” I’ve always found him and his music
to be interesting – as much as the public does. On tour he finds it
complimentary to have me share the bill with him and vice versa.
Connect Savannah: Both you and Dylan are known for not saying too much in
public about your political views, but, when you do take a stand, folks pay
attention. I know you haven’t been the most ardent supporter of our current
presidential administration in regards to the military action in the Middle
East. Do you get any feeling that more people are starting to question
authority, or do things still look pretty grim to you as far as free speech
is concerned?
Merle Haggard: It looks pretty grim, doesn’t it? I don’t see any chance for
the people who disagree to really change anything. I mean, we have chosen to
go to war to defend our freedom. Meanwhile, at the exact same time, our
freedom is being diminished in our own country by scare tactics that are
supposedly caused by terrorists – but we’re the ones running up the “terror
alert.” So, what does that makes us? If we’re gonna go all the way across
the world and fight for it, we should have the very best brand of it. But we
don’t have it anymore.
I really wonder sometimes how long the public will be so stupid as to allow
themselves to continue to be shortchanged. I just wish someone – anyone –
would take a minute and raise their head and look up to see what’s really
going away, what we’ve already lost. This Free Trade Agreement that we’re in
– we’re now on a level playing field with over a hundred other countries.
After all the scare tactics our government’s used on us since 9/11, we’ve
gone straight to hell in this country. We have no say whatsoever in much of
the way our government conducts its business, and the way they scapegoat
people. Look what they did to the Dixie Chicks, and Linda Ronstadt.
Connect Savannah: Well, that Linda Ronstadt business was so absurd that it
almost seemed like a Saturday Night Live sketch.
Merle Haggard: It seemed like something from 1942 Nazi Germany to me. I
don’t know why little by little people have allowed our country to change so
much over the last five years! What we’re fighting for doesn’t even exist
anymore.
Connect Savannah: When you see the crowds on these double-bills, how are
they different from the shows where you’re the headliner? Are they younger,
more diverse?
Merle Haggard: Well, I’ll tell you what. After touring for 40 years and
watching this country go away, the time of day seems to determine whether
you have an older crowd. If you want to draw anybody even remotely older,
you gotta play at noon! They’re not gonna come out in this country anymore!
They’re scared to death to come out after dark. That’s a fact. By and large
you just won’t see ladies with grey in their hair walking around after dark
in most cities. In this society, it’s the young folks who come out at night.
So, if you wanna draw kids, you play after dark. (laughs)
Connect Savannah: Well, these Dylan shows start in the early evening, so I
guess it’s the best of both worlds.
Merle Haggard: You’re right. We seem to draw a cross-section of both age
groups. For example, I played in Miami, Oklahoma last night. We had a full
house by ourselves. But the show started at 7:30 in the evening! Now, some
years ago, I’m here to tell you that nobody would have been at a show at
7:30 at night! But now, with the terror alerts and the lack of freedom and
the scare tactics they’re using… Then, you’ve got these people who won’t
come out on the weekends. They won’t even compete with the young people
anymore. It’s like they’ve given in and given up. It’s really become two
separate societies as far as the age difference is concerned.
I just celebrated my birthday. It was my 69th, so I didn’t celebrate it that
much (laughs), I just stayed at home. I don’t even go to the Quickie Stop
after dark. My family and everyone I know is the exact same way. After dark,
the streets seem like they belong to the gangs and the police. But, hell, by
9 p.m., the gangs and the police are even shut out! We played in Kansas
City, Kansas, the other night, and our hotel was way up high on a hill. You
could look out and see the whole town, and there was nothin’ goin’ on! The
place was totally shut down. America used to be a 24-hour country, and these
days it seems like it doesn’t do anything after 9 o’clock.
Connect Savannah: As an artist who’s crossed the U.S. for decades, you’ve
got a unique perspective on this changing climate. Do you feel any sort of
sea change in the works? Is there a backlash brewing?
Merle Haggard: I believe you and I will never see any different as long as
we live. We’re stuck with it. I feel like certain towns in America are
committed to entertainment. You have Myrtle Beach, New York City, Portland,
Seattle, San Francisco, Las Vegas, and after that you head toward the center
of the U.S., and there’s nothing. Nothing! If it’s happening, it better damn
well happen in the middle of the day, or it’ll be a failure.
I don’t know how America can work on only eight hours a day. People
shouldn’t forget – this used to be a 24-hour country. It used to be you
could go anywhere in Las Vegas and get steak and eggs at four in the
morning. ‘Round the clock. Now, you can’t get breakfast after 2 p.m. in Las
Vegas! If there’s anybody that doubts what I’m saying, they need to go out,
and ride across this country and see what I’m talking about. It’ll break
your heart.
Connect Savannah: When you returned to Capitol records, it made for great
PR. Did it feel at all like a real homecoming, or was that just a convenient
story?
Merle Haggard: Well, you know the Capitol records of ’65 and the Capitol
Records of now have no similarity whatsoever. It’s completely different
people with different ideas on how to run a business. I think one of the
main reasons they wanted me back was to get the digital rights on some of my
old material that they didn’t have. The majority of the music they had on me
was on old contracts, and they had no provisions in there for digital
rights.
I think they wanted my signature on that and that was the only reason they
ever signed me again. I don’t think they had any intention of trying to sell
my new stuff at all. They just wanted to get their hands back on the old
stuff. They don’t care about Unforgettable or (his latest LP) Chicago Wind.
Come to think of it, though, there’s one similarity between the new fellas
and the old ones: they both speak with the forked tongue! (laughs)
Connect Savannah: Has any of this turned into an ugly legal matter?
Merle Haggard: There’s not any young attorneys that wanna mess with me. See,
I have an attorney, and he’s a real one.
Connect Savannah: Many of your older LPs are getting the deluxe reissue
treatment by Capitol, and it’s shining a light on some of your most enduring
work – but it’s also adding to that legacy by including a lot of previously
unreleased tracks. Did you have any say in what stuff got tacked on to those
CDs, and how do you feel about that?
Merle Haggard: Well, you know, it’s entertaining to me and I’m sure it’s
entertaining to other people to hear mistakes and conversations that we
deemed unreleasable in the early days. But if you’re asking me whether or
not I had any say-so on how they put that stuff together? Of course not.
They didn’t ask me a damn thing. They just threw it on there. Some of those
songs they put out – like “Swinging Doors” – the copy they have out now is
not even the correct one! It’s the rehearsal take. We were exactly one take
away from the master. Now, I have no idea what happened to the master take
of that song, but see, what they’re selling’s not accurate. It’s that kind
of treatment that’s not fair to the artist.
Connect Savannah: How is it that someone of your stature in the music
business receives so little respect or courtesy from the company that has
made a small fortune off your work throughout the years?
Merle Haggard: What you’ve got is a bunch of kids workin’ there now and they
have absolutely no idea who Merle Haggard is or what he is, or what he was,
and what he stood for. What they do is this: Let’s take a scenario. A new
attorney, fresh out of school, barely 34, he’s never heard a single one of
my songs in his life. So, they wanna remix it, or whatever. Most of ’em
figure I’m dead! As crazy as that sounds, that’s the first thing they
assume.
So they just proceed to do whatever they feel like, until somebody says, oh
no! He’s still alive! So they say, well, let’s get him to sign something.
Let’s offer him a new deal. Then, once they’ve got your name on there, they
put it out regardless. They don’t care at all about your feelings or how
it’s gonna look to the fans. They have no intelligence. Kinda like our
government.
Connect Savannah: You received the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award a few
months ago. Does recognition of that sort mean much to you?
Merle Haggard: Well, lemme give you the real scoop on that. There was four
people that got that award at the same time: Richard Pryor, Robert Johnson,
David Bowie and me. Now, two of the others are dead. And they thought I was
dead at first!
So when I said, well, that’s great news, are you gonna let me walk out and
say thank you? They said, “Oh, no.” They told me I had to get my award the
day before the actual event, and then sit there in the audience while all
these rappers I don’t know get up and play, and they said, “then we’ll pan
across you one time with the camera.” I said, naw. No you won’t. (laughs)
I told ’em they could stick it where the sun don’t shine! I really don’t
care about such things enough to take part in all that mess. (laughs)
Connect Savannah: So you didn’t even pick up the award your label keeps
touting?
Merle Haggard: Naw, man. I didn’t go down there. They had to send it to me
in the mail. See, it’s shameful for an organization like that to use my name
and the names of Richard Pryor and Robert Johnson and David Bowie. Those are
great artists. But if you’re puttin’ the show together, you’re gonna throw
all those big names out there to try and get people to watch and get your
ratings up, but heaven forbid you let anybody actually see these old fellas!
Neither me nor David Bowie went down there, for the exact same reason.
Connect Savannah: Many were upset when Buck Owens recently died. Had the two
of you kept in touch?
Merle Haggard: We were such good friends. Since the time he passed I’ve
learned he wasn’t even sick. They said he was doin’ pretty well, in fact.
Seems he was tired and just went to sleep one morning. He came to see me in
Portland on that first tour with Bob and that was the last time I spoke to
him in person. It was a big shock. Buck was really influential to my life.
I’ll tell you something that a lot of folks may not agree with, but it’s
true. Buck was the epitome of rockabilly. He was half rock and roll and half
country. He came out of the bars of Southern California, and in deference to
a lot of country acts that came out of the Southern gospel tradition, he
came from the Bakersfield barrooms.
Connect Savannah: If there’s someone reading this who’s never considered
themselves a country fan, what’s the one album Merle Haggard would encourage
them to pick up that would serve as a great example of the very best country
that’s ever been recorded?
Merle Haggard: Well, I don’t know. I don’t even consider myself country
anymore. I identify more with what’s happening in rock and roll right now,
and it’s the rock people who seem to identify with me the most, and treat me
with some sort of respect. The country people are out to use my name for
different things if they can, and the rock and roll people seem to just like
me for who I am.
To hell with country! That’s the way I’m feelin’ about it.
Connect Savannah: Why do you think that is? I remember when Johnny Cash was
inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, Roseanne Cash said it meant much
more to him to be accepted as a peer by those folks than it ever did for him
to receive praise from the country music business.
Merle Haggard: Well, the rock people are coming from the heart and soul, and
country people are always tryin’ to use you.
Connect Savannah: That’s so strange: Rock and roll always gets tagged as the
shallow, callous genre, while country made a name for itself as being a more
traditional and spiritual form of music that’s linked to the heartland and
the whole compassionate conservative movement.
Merle Haggard: I think it went south along with our whole country. See, the
whole situation of life has changed. What they’re calling country is about
as country as downtown New York! It’s got nothin’ to do with actual country
music. Country’s supposed to be about people who find their way from the
soil to the microphone – instead of bein’ shaped into some kind of phony
perfection with computers like they do nowadays. I mean, who can sing and
who can’t? You really can’t tell anymore.
Connect Savannah: Who do you listen to for pleasure or inspiration these
days?
Merle Haggard: I wish I could give you a title of something. I don’t really
listen to much new music at all. It doesn’t speak to me. XM’s about the only
radio I listen to anymore. We listen on the bus to a satellite channel
called Hank’s Place. I listen to old pop and country, but I don’t pay any
attention to what’s goin’ down today. I don’t find any melodies at all that
I can sit down and whistle! I always thought music was lyrics and melody
together. Nowadays it’s just lyrics and the same melody over and over again.
There’s so little uniqueness, it really doesn’t turn me on.
Connect Savannah: My buddy Webb Wilder is fond of saying that real music is
out there and real people are making it. I figure that’s why you and the
Strangers have continued to do well on the road.
Merle Haggard: Well, I’ll tell you what – you’ve hit it on the head. That’s
the reason we’re drawin’ people. They’re starved to death for real music!
They sure can’t hear it on the radio anymore
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