On August 29, 2014, I helped facilitate a Twitter chat for a course I was co-designing and facilitating called Why Open? at P2PU (Peer 2 Peer University).
I had this Twitter chat archived at storify.com, but since it’s going away I’m moving the Tweets here to my blog instead. So imagine that this post was made in 2014!
I took out some tweets whose URLs went nowhere; apparently they have left Twitter or moved their accounts…
Introductions
Welcome to the #WhyOpen chat! Please introduce yourself: where you’re from, what you do, your interest in “open”.
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen I teach philosophy at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada. Mostly interested in open edu, but other open too.
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen Not in Course and was curious about WhyOpen.
— David R. (@oceanedge) August 29, 2014
@oceanedge Welcome! We’ll get to the why open questions in a couple of minutes. #WhyOpen
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
#whyopen hello everyone :)
— Anka Skowron (@ankaskowron) August 29, 2014
@WhyOpenCourse Just joined #WhyOpen week 3 discussion.
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
Question 1, about Creative Commons licenses
Q1: During week 2, we looked at creative commons licenses. Do you have any questions about any of them? #WhyOpen
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
@ankaskowron Welcome, Anka! Did you see question1? Basically: do you have any Q’s about creative commons licenses? #WhyOpen
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
No not really, I am still learning about them but download and iPad app to mark my works with cc licence #whyopen
— Anka Skowron (@ankaskowron) August 29, 2014
@ankaskowron Which iPad app do you use to mark works with CC? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc cc stamp #whyopen
— Anka Skowron (@ankaskowron) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen A1: A question came up on twitter last week: if use CCBYSA pic on blog post, does blog post have to be CCBYSA too?
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer I used to never use CCBYSA images on blog b/c I was mistaken about that. So only if I change the image itself somehow? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc @krisshaffer that discussion we had w @podehaye – we can reuse the image but not remix if our blog is diff license? #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen A1: another question: if ppl don’t want commercial use of their work, does CCBYSA do that as well as CCBYNC, and then more?
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen I guess what I’m asking is: if someone wants non commercial use of their work, is NC the best, or does SA do more than NC for that?
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc according this text, yes SA is preferred over NC for that reason #WhyOpen https://t.co/s9oEMii8P5
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell Thanks, I’ll read over that after the chat! #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc I always wondered how CCBYSA could be used commercially, since the SA implies non-commercial anyway #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha It implies you have to give it an SA license, but you could still try to charge others for it if you want? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc the part about open source commercial always confuses me but the commercial part is separate usually #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc @marcaDev exactly my point. The software is not commercial; the hosting/maintenance are separate #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc @krisshaffer @podehaye Legally SA doesn't imply NC. Law is specific which is why they're different rights #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc @krisshaffer here's the link @podehaye shared RE: reuse of diff licenses (good table there) #whyopen https://t.co/Wbsanty4XB
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc @marcaDev for me commercial means "ask for money" not meaning "used by corporation" #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc @marcaDev I am OK for my work to be reused by commercial entity, but NOT OK if they ask others to pay #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc @marcaDev As long as you aren't trying to live off creative work, this distinction is fine #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
+1 MT @clhendricksbc: @krisshaffer Wait, I didn’t know that SA means if others make money off your work you can too. Explain? #WhyOpen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc ah got it. Good pooint :) They ref u, remix it with SA, so you can re-use the remix and sell if u like #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
Does that mean NC-SA is paradox? RT @krisshaffer: @clhendricksbc @Bali_Maha NC says *this is mine*. SA says *this is ours*. #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc to my NC-SA means use it as I use it and don't sell it… to me it made sense til u came along, Kris! #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc I don't understand it as about ownership, but as use rights. They aren't contradictory #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
Isn't SA also a kind of advocacy for openness? It "restricts" others into being "open" – right? #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha oh, absolutely – which is why we use it throughout the Wikimedia movement! #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha That’s how I think of SA. #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell coool :) So I got the spirit of it, then :) #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha spot on! :) #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @Bali_Maha I think of NC this way, that I would use it if I want to make money off my stuff but don’t want others to. #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc to me, NC means, since I'm not sellin it & I made it, then U can't sell a remix. You gotta keep free #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @clhendricksbc is there any license that prevents the CREATOR from selling? #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc yep the license is granted by the holder, creator could get interesting if you went that way #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc Wouldn't that be CC0? #WhyOpen https://t.co/L2zobjvt95
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc Yes, but can anyone benefit from the sale if it is free for anyone to use? #WhyOpen 1/2
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc Not a restriction to sale but availability can restrict financial advantage. 2/2 #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc yes, ppl who don't know it's available for free! Or think there's more to the paid #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc some books on Kindle for money, free on PDF. Some may pay for Kindle format, I wouldn't #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc but if I didn't know it was avail free on pdf, I might mistakenly pay for kindle :( #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc It's ok if paid for it. We need to be attentive to where found and use appropriately #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @krisshaffer @clhendricksbc Why research skills are key: look for source/text across internet to find where it is free #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer @jeannettemelee @clhendricksbc copyleft precedes CC, right? I heard of both at same conf way back in… 2004 I think #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
Question 2: Benefits of openness
Q2: Let’s get started on the #WhyOpen questions. First, what are the benefits of open, in any context you want to focus on?
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen A2: Benefits of making my edu work open: meet & collaborate w/others around world, improve tchg materials, even invites to speak.
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc I totally, totally agree!!! #whyopen
— Anka Skowron (@ankaskowron) August 29, 2014
@WhyOpenCourse A2: Without open, we're left with only small bits of siloed knowledge/collaboration- perhaps some like it that way? #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell Why might some like it that way? For commercial purposes, or other reasons do you think? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc Well, I meet lots of people who find it scary that _anyone_ can edit the encyclopedia… Issues of power, I think #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell Makes sense, and issues of expertise/reliability—how can we trust “the crowd” type of thing? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc and whose knowledge and skills are valid – Imagine when open is norm! :) #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen A2: asking stds to work openly: they can discuss w/more ppl, connect to communities of intrst, make their work better b/c public
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@JanWeb3 Right; I guess it makes sense that if we’re doing & discussing things openly, easier for others to see & changes to happen #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
A2: Benefits of open are increase in professional network & constant learning #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
Question 3: Talking to colleagues about openness
Q3: How might you convince a colleague in your line of work/play to be more open in their work (if you think that's important)? #WhyOpen
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
a3 I think you don't need to convince, just give people the confidence to play with it #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley So the main thing holding people back is confidence, you think? They see the value but afraid? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc that and time and the know how. Licensing is still confusing #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley Clearly licensing still confusing, as some of us here still had questions about NC & SA meanings! #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc if CC made an "educational open" license I think people would do it more #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @clhendricksbc isn't "educational open" already embedded in the idea of "fair use" of Copyright? #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc fair use a a USA term, no defence in the UK for fair use #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc i also think localised sharing is a good first step which is ignored over sharing with everyone #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley So, for a uni, e.g., sharing with other ppl in the uni alone in a repository or something? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc yep, i tried to persuade Nottingham to do LER – local educational resources #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley UBC tried to do this too, but they required it: if you shared materials with anyone then automatically with all UBC #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@patlockley As you know, requiring sharing of materials with others, even locally, went badly for my Uni. #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc mandates are the problem, let people choose their own speed #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @clhendricksbc I agree esp with profs & Ts who are used to autonomy in a way that other professionals aren't #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @clhendricksbc I think it is more if academics discover it – they like it. If they are told to do it – good luck #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @clhendricksbc Exposure & discovery is the way but mandates from admin leads to rejection #whyopen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @clhendricksbc quite #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc I worry convince is a bit zealot – but could just be a basic word choice #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley Maybe a bit zealot, but one an make good arguments where others don’t know all the benefits & that could be “convince” #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@patlockley For me, “convince” is make a case for something and let other person agree or not. Maybe bad word choice! #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc so you can convince someone and they disagree with you? #philosophyhurts #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley Okay, right, bad word choice. I should have said “try to convince”! #badphilosophyhurts #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc #whatwouldhegeldo #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc @patlockley I'd think convince by example. Not everyone benefits from OERs but when they do they may "get it" #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha who do you mean doesn't benifit from OER? :) #WhyOpen @clhendricksbc @patlockley
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc @patlockley Ppl who don't benefit from OER: if can't find them; if don't have tech/lang to use #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc @patlockley much education is contextual & OERs not all adaptable to context #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc it is easy to not benefit from OER if they are designed for colonial purposes (see MOOCs) #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc @patlockley I use lots of OER coz I teach in an English institution in Egypt, but not same for all #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha yes, agree that OER is lacking in diversity, what can be done-Will it diversify as it opens up even more? @clhendricksbc #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc colonialism doesn't need to be intentional to cause harm #ItJustIs #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc no question of intent, just OER aren't guaranteed to be harm free #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @patlockley @clhendricksbc I keep returning to this: who has access to create/design OER – is key. Inclusive openness? #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @patlockley @clhendricksbc precisely. The "privileged" have better access to create OER therefore skewed openness #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @patlockley @clhendricksbc also who has access to view/reuse – language, tech infrastructure, tech ability, literacy #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @Bali_Maha @patlockley @clhendricksbc #OEP & #OER can & should be created by edu professionals in home country #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @patlockley @clhendricksbc but still end up being the privileged among home country, not rep of all #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc not sure if privileged is the right dividing line – some of it isn't #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc home country seems a weird phrase though? some OER is context free? #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc very little "education" is context free. Even maths and science #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc picture of an atom? picture of a molecule? #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc I don't consider simple images OER – I mean more complex stuff, obviously #WhyOpen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc pics of atoms are possibly pedagogically better to draw LIVE than use OER #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @SaraMrtsell @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc US & Trinidad edu is different that context dependent & locals should have say #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc not disagreeing that local voices aren't important, but OER can travel #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @SaraMrtsell @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc some #OER is context free. Moocs by US profs don't always address edu worldwide #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
@jeannettemelee that came up in Coursera F/SF bcs all texts western when easy not be…bothered me too but others very defensive #WhyOpen
— VanessaVaile (@VanessaVaile) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc yeah sure OER can travel and does, but need to recognize limits #WhyOpen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@patlockley @jeannettemelee @SaraMrtsell @clhendricksbc i.e. just because it's open does not mean it's equally accessible #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer Thanks! Read it and loved and have blogged obout it ;) @Bali_Maha @patlockley @clhendricksbc #whyopen #criticaltextbook
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@krisshaffer here's my comment (all in Swedish, very accessable :) http://t.co/qColrWpPmG @Bali_Maha @patlockley @clhendricksbc #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@SaraMrtsell @krisshaffer @Bali_Maha @clhendricksbc apologies for speaking no Swedish :( #whyopen
— patlockley (@patlockley) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @JeanetteMelee about online ed, moocs & colonialism not #WhyOpen, Mr Minerva speaks http://t.co/gSbeKHW6r8 @slicksean
— VanessaVaile (@VanessaVaile) August 29, 2014
Question 4: Drawbacks to openness?
Q4: And the other side: why not open? What might be some drawbacks to openness, in any context you want to focus on? #WhyOpen
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
Drawback is misattribution. Coz work is available for free, ppl can forget to attribute or attribute as their own #whyopen @WhyOpenCourse
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha Isn't this something that can change as open becomes more of a norm? #fingerscrossed @WhyOpenCourse #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha Just curious: this could happen if you pay for something too, though? Forget to attribute or pretend it’s your own? #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc ya misattribution happens anyway, but ppl tend to think "free" stuff is free-for-all Conflate copyright w plagiarism #whyopen
— ℳąhą Bąℓi مها بالي ???? (@Bali_Maha) August 29, 2014
@Bali_Maha @WhyOpenCourse Mis-attribution is type of plagiarism. I ask Ss to use at least 1 CC wrk as part of teaching plagiarism #WhyOpen
— Jeannette (@jeannettemelee) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen A4 Some faculty may want to carefully control what’s visible of what they do, for hiring/promotion/tenure sake (don’t show it all)
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
@WhyOpenCourse Ooops, that last “WhyOpenCourse” tweet was from me. #WhyOpen
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen A4: making all my tchg materials public & open leaves me vulnerable to criticism. @patlockley’s point about confidence is important
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
End…
Officially our time is up, but of course feel free to continue chatting! Thanks to everyone for joining in! #WhyOpen
— Why Open Course (@WhyOpenCourse) August 29, 2014
#WhyOpen Thanks everyone for an enlightening chat! I continue to learn more and more about CC licenses even when I think I’ve got it all!
— Christina Hendricks (@clhendricksbc) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc Thanks for asking superinteresting questions! very helpful :) #WhyOpen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
@clhendricksbc wow! "who edits the encyclopedia decides the knowledge we are choosing to remember" we need more voices on Wikipedia #Whyopen
— Sara Mörtsell (@SaraMrtsell) August 29, 2014
