The Insiders
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Jan
20
Issue of the Day: Student Apathy
Posted by: Neal Yonson | January 20, 2007 | 36 Comments
Student apathy is a constant nagging theme threading through AMS affairs. “Students just don’t care” is a detrimental attitude into which is sometimes too easy to sink as an executive, AMS Councillor, or observer. Just look at the voter turnout, they say: as several candidates have pointed out in this election, it’s peaked at 13% and usually hovers around a dismal 10% . From a campus of 42,000 students, it is argued that it’s a pathetic number on which to base a claim to be ‘representative’ of the student body.
But perhaps it is the very fact that this campus is so large that it is particularly difficult to achieve some sense of unity. The University of Toronto is by far the largest university in Canada, but it has the advantage of partitioned into smaller colleges, which in turn act as independent, manageable-sized campuses. So this leaves us with the largest student union – the AMS of the Vancouver campus of the University of British Columbia. We also have a physically large campus, with no central “hub.” This means people feel more affinity to clubs (administered by the AMS), their residences, friends, sports teams… Also, we’re largely a commuter campus, which means UBC is just a place to spend a day, rather than “life.”
Look comparatively – the AMS voter turnout is no worse, really, than any other comparable University. And youth voter apathy is a constant problem, not just limited to the AMS – look at how few students vote in federal and provincial elections. Heck, even municipal government elections are lucky to have voter turnout around 20%. Consider referenda: when Vancouver held a referendum on a ward system, fewer than 40% turned out, compared to over 50% turnout for the referendum at UBC about the U-Pass.
So we’d ask the following:
- Are students really as apathetic as we think?
- Is the lack of voting really a good measurement of apathy? Is voter education worth the effort?
- Ought we to concentrate on engaging more students in UBC affairs, or on engaging the small number more meaningfully?
- What does “apathy” even mean?
Comments
36 Comments so far
1) Yes
2) Yes. What does voter education really mean?
3) The AMS should try to engage more students. Yes I know it does that already. No it doesn’t work.
4) who cares
questions for you both:
1) Is the AMS cool?
2) Should it have to be?
3) Should it try to be?
4) What does “cool” really mean?
1) Yes
2) Yes. What does voter education really mean?
3) The AMS should try to engage more students. Yes I know it does that already. No it doesn’t work.
4) who cares
questions for you both:
1) Is the AMS cool?
2) Should it have to be?
3) Should it try to be?
4) What does “cool” really mean?
Could voter apathy be a sign of a relatively healthy campus? I realize that saying ‘the absence of bad is good’ isn’t exactly logically sound, but when something comes up that’s important to a lot of students (a la U-Pass) they have been known to vote. But then again maybe the AMS just promoted the referendum more.
How does voter turnout compare to something like club membership? I’d consider that to be engaging in the AMS, at least to a degree. Just because students don’t care about the AMS directly doesn’t mean they don’t care about their UBC experience. It’s only among student goverment types that those two seem to be totally interrelated.
Could voter apathy be a sign of a relatively healthy campus? I realize that saying ‘the absence of bad is good’ isn’t exactly logically sound, but when something comes up that’s important to a lot of students (a la U-Pass) they have been known to vote. But then again maybe the AMS just promoted the referendum more.
How does voter turnout compare to something like club membership? I’d consider that to be engaging in the AMS, at least to a degree. Just because students don’t care about the AMS directly doesn’t mean they don’t care about their UBC experience. It’s only among student goverment types that those two seem to be totally interrelated.
Let’s forget about apathy, because it really isn’t something we can affect. Instead, let’s talk about what our goals are, how to achieve them, and why they haven’t been acheieved yet. Is the operation of the AMS hampered by not knowing what students think about issues? Then let’s come up with ways to find out what students think. Are there not enough people coming out to X event? Then let’s figure out how to get more people to talk about X event. Apathy is way too big to handle. It is an abstraction, something we can’t get our hands on. Find concrete problems and try to fix those. If we are able to do that, “apathy” will go away as a side-effect.
Let’s forget about apathy, because it really isn’t something we can affect. Instead, let’s talk about what our goals are, how to achieve them, and why they haven’t been acheieved yet. Is the operation of the AMS hampered by not knowing what students think about issues? Then let’s come up with ways to find out what students think. Are there not enough people coming out to X event? Then let’s figure out how to get more people to talk about X event. Apathy is way too big to handle. It is an abstraction, something we can’t get our hands on. Find concrete problems and try to fix those. If we are able to do that, “apathy” will go away as a side-effect.
Possible solutions to this problem:
1) AMS-ers GET OUT THERE!!! Talk to random students, tell them what you do and most importantly, ask them what they think!
2) At the start and end of each term, compile a short, simple and sweet publication summarizing AMS members, services, funding, etc in an unconvoluted way. It should also come with sudokus and crosswords, then stuffed into student hands like what 24hrs and all those free newspapers do.
Possible solutions to this problem:
1) AMS-ers GET OUT THERE!!! Talk to random students, tell them what you do and most importantly, ask them what they think!
2) At the start and end of each term, compile a short, simple and sweet publication summarizing AMS members, services, funding, etc in an unconvoluted way. It should also come with sudokus and crosswords, then stuffed into student hands like what 24hrs and all those free newspapers do.
Dear anon:
While I hesitate to answer for Gina, I suspect that both of us are unsure enough about “cool”-ness that we’re afraid about answering your question.
Though I also get your point, that it all turns on definitions of the term. Yeah, we know. What we’re trying to get at is various definitions of the term, so, you know, people can learn.
Dear anon:
While I hesitate to answer for Gina, I suspect that both of us are unsure enough about “cool”-ness that we’re afraid about answering your question.
Though I also get your point, that it all turns on definitions of the term. Yeah, we know. What we’re trying to get at is various definitions of the term, so, you know, people can learn.
I can’t believe I’m doing this. I told myself I’d never blog, but hey, what the fuck. Apparently I’m a perpetual insomniac these days so what else am I going to do at 6 in the morning…
Tim, your last post I think got right to the heart of why people tune the AMS the fuck out—”trying to get at various definitions of the term” of coolness? Man, I love you, and out of the spectrum of reps that I have met in UBC student politics over my grudging tenure here, you’re one of the least pretentious and the most intelligent, but FUCK, seriously, by and large, that there answers your question:
Any group that’s going to sit down and ruminate over how to compartmentalise and deconstruct ‘coolness’ as a concerted effort to engage the populace is by definition NOT cool. It’s an organisational wonk-fest. Straight up.
Plus, when I interviewed you, you and Corbett made a good point: the AMS is not all about advocacy, but really, in retrospect, the only thing I gave a shit about when interviewing AMS reps about this VFM thing was the imperceptible, encroaching changes happening through BoG and stuff—aka campus development/student advocacy issues. And no one (including the AMS, the Ubyssey and especially the University) is getting that stuff across in comprehensive, honest, digestible chunks to students.
Since I wrote that feach, I’ve run into more AMS candidates and reps that are psyched that the Ubyssey will be covering ‘more AMS events’. Dead wrong. We will be making a stronger effort to address the above problem, and the AMS has the inside skinny on all the things the University is trying to do and how it trickles down to students’ concerns. It’s highly bureaucratic and full of marketing newspeak, and covering it makes me want to blow my brains out, but ten years or so of this red tape will probably result in serious changes in how students will be treated so we’re obligated to help students understand what’s happening.
In terms of trying to get students more interested in AMS events, call me jaded, but I’ve spent my entire time at UBC pulling away from campus events and finding cool shit/people in Vancouver for the simple reason that events on UBC campus are largely in terrible venues (aka the SUB) with crap music, food and beer…Vancouver is one of Canada’s coolest cities, why would someone subscribe to drinking beer in a tent in a parking lot or the dusty-ass SUB ballroom when they can go see the Roots at the Commodore or drink at the Railway, for example?
Vancouver is a metropolis, while the aesthetic of most AMS events is small-ass potatoes, outside of the ACF (which, speaking as an ex-Deadhead and concert addict, is one of the most poorly adminstrated/regulated festival concerts I’ve ever attended…but that just might be because it attracts hordes of kids who want to get alcohol poisoning, don’t give a shit about the music and have no idea how to behave at a concert.)
My two cynical cents. Peace.
I can’t believe I’m doing this. I told myself I’d never blog, but hey, what the fuck. Apparently I’m a perpetual insomniac these days so what else am I going to do at 6 in the morning…
Tim, your last post I think got right to the heart of why people tune the AMS the fuck out—”trying to get at various definitions of the term” of coolness? Man, I love you, and out of the spectrum of reps that I have met in UBC student politics over my grudging tenure here, you’re one of the least pretentious and the most intelligent, but FUCK, seriously, by and large, that there answers your question:
Any group that’s going to sit down and ruminate over how to compartmentalise and deconstruct ‘coolness’ as a concerted effort to engage the populace is by definition NOT cool. It’s an organisational wonk-fest. Straight up.
Plus, when I interviewed you, you and Corbett made a good point: the AMS is not all about advocacy, but really, in retrospect, the only thing I gave a shit about when interviewing AMS reps about this VFM thing was the imperceptible, encroaching changes happening through BoG and stuff—aka campus development/student advocacy issues. And no one (including the AMS, the Ubyssey and especially the University) is getting that stuff across in comprehensive, honest, digestible chunks to students.
Since I wrote that feach, I’ve run into more AMS candidates and reps that are psyched that the Ubyssey will be covering ‘more AMS events’. Dead wrong. We will be making a stronger effort to address the above problem, and the AMS has the inside skinny on all the things the University is trying to do and how it trickles down to students’ concerns. It’s highly bureaucratic and full of marketing newspeak, and covering it makes me want to blow my brains out, but ten years or so of this red tape will probably result in serious changes in how students will be treated so we’re obligated to help students understand what’s happening.
In terms of trying to get students more interested in AMS events, call me jaded, but I’ve spent my entire time at UBC pulling away from campus events and finding cool shit/people in Vancouver for the simple reason that events on UBC campus are largely in terrible venues (aka the SUB) with crap music, food and beer…Vancouver is one of Canada’s coolest cities, why would someone subscribe to drinking beer in a tent in a parking lot or the dusty-ass SUB ballroom when they can go see the Roots at the Commodore or drink at the Railway, for example?
Vancouver is a metropolis, while the aesthetic of most AMS events is small-ass potatoes, outside of the ACF (which, speaking as an ex-Deadhead and concert addict, is one of the most poorly adminstrated/regulated festival concerts I’ve ever attended…but that just might be because it attracts hordes of kids who want to get alcohol poisoning, don’t give a shit about the music and have no idea how to behave at a concert.)
My two cynical cents. Peace.
momoko’s got it
tim you rock, obviously, for trying this hard. strength of an ape, buddy.
momoko’s got it
tim you rock, obviously, for trying this hard. strength of an ape, buddy.
Tim/Gina, do you know anything about the People’s Potato at Concordia University?
Tim/Gina, do you know anything about the People’s Potato at Concordia University?
Momo’s got it, up to a point.
No, the AMS shouldn’t be trying to compete with the real world for entertainment value, for events, but it does have a role to play in facilitating connections between people, helping them form relationships.
Momo, many of the people you go out with you met at UBC. Every time you see Ubyssey people, you have the AMS to thank for starting up that paper 80 years ago. So maybe the AMS ought not to be running “events” per se, but certainly they have a role in creating campus life institutions.
Momo’s got it, up to a point.
No, the AMS shouldn’t be trying to compete with the real world for entertainment value, for events, but it does have a role to play in facilitating connections between people, helping them form relationships.
Momo, many of the people you go out with you met at UBC. Every time you see Ubyssey people, you have the AMS to thank for starting up that paper 80 years ago. So maybe the AMS ought not to be running “events” per se, but certainly they have a role in creating campus life institutions.
more questions for tim/gina
1) why was the U-pass turnout so high. don’t just speculate though. are there statistics? anything?
2) what ever happened the referendum question about having an aboriginal seat on council or whatever…? that failed (in the same ref. vote?). and i think that was a failure of ams to communicate with students…i mean, it was up to us, but the result (no seat) was embarrassing and remains so.
more questions for tim/gina
1) why was the U-pass turnout so high. don’t just speculate though. are there statistics? anything?
2) what ever happened the referendum question about having an aboriginal seat on council or whatever…? that failed (in the same ref. vote?). and i think that was a failure of ams to communicate with students…i mean, it was up to us, but the result (no seat) was embarrassing and remains so.
AMS politics are best compared to municipal politics.
AMS politics are best compared to municipal politics.
Anon:
1) There are no statistics about why the turnout was so high, but the overwhelming “yes” majority leads to some pretty obvious conclusions: people love the U-Pass and keeping it was important to them. People said “if you want to keep the U-Pass, vote!” and that message resonated.
2) The referendum failed, as you rightly point out. It kinda shows how hard it is to get quorum, though support for a First Nations seat was far from unanimous.
Anon:
1) There are no statistics about why the turnout was so high, but the overwhelming “yes” majority leads to some pretty obvious conclusions: people love the U-Pass and keeping it was important to them. People said “if you want to keep the U-Pass, vote!” and that message resonated.
2) The referendum failed, as you rightly point out. It kinda shows how hard it is to get quorum, though support for a First Nations seat was far from unanimous.
Tim – 3:07
Ok, so people liked the U-Pass. If we’re going to speculate, I think we should dig deeper. Questions I have which I imagine people in the AMS must have are as follows:
1.Who voted Yes?
1.1. What does the AMS about the people that voted Yes to the UPass?
It’s more than just “we liked the U-Pass.” There were social and environmental issues tied to that vote. Not to mention it was a bread and butter issue.
2. Who voted No?
2.1. Why did they vote No?
Was their No vote a political or economic statement? Some people live in White Rock. The U-Pass is great for me in Vancouver, but it’s less helpful to someone who wants to cut down a 3-hour commute. And then that’s an issue of Translink services, which then becomes an issue for the VP External to advocate for. etc.
What do you think?
Tim – 3:07
Ok, so people liked the U-Pass. If we’re going to speculate, I think we should dig deeper. Questions I have which I imagine people in the AMS must have are as follows:
1.Who voted Yes?
1.1. What does the AMS about the people that voted Yes to the UPass?
It’s more than just “we liked the U-Pass.” There were social and environmental issues tied to that vote. Not to mention it was a bread and butter issue.
2. Who voted No?
2.1. Why did they vote No?
Was their No vote a political or economic statement? Some people live in White Rock. The U-Pass is great for me in Vancouver, but it’s less helpful to someone who wants to cut down a 3-hour commute. And then that’s an issue of Translink services, which then becomes an issue for the VP External to advocate for. etc.
What do you think?
Last question.
Who’s voting in AMS elections? Obviously the bureaucracy votes, but who are students like me – there must be students like me – that rarely involve themselves with extracurriculars but read the Ubyssey all candidates guide and vote the best they can…
I mean, 15% annual turnout or whatever – isn’t that a new kind of failed state….?
The email addresses are a good start.
Last question.
Who’s voting in AMS elections? Obviously the bureaucracy votes, but who are students like me – there must be students like me – that rarely involve themselves with extracurriculars but read the Ubyssey all candidates guide and vote the best they can…
I mean, 15% annual turnout or whatever – isn’t that a new kind of failed state….?
The email addresses are a good start.
tim. i never went to ams events. i care about the ams, but i never went to the events. get maxwell maxwell to plan the events. they’d be great.
sorry i keep treating you like you’re on ams council. but i do still feel like you’re someone with sway and someone with an opinion that matters, and during your term (s-?) cultivated a cordial enough relationship with the university (that is not a bitchslap) that permits you to speak with some resonance.
here’s the priority list
1) food/drink/water – hey, if the AMS gave away free coffee or tea in the morning, I’d come upstairs. The Sub needs a supermarket that’s bigger than Sprouts to be relevant
2) something that resembles the Ridington Room before it went away. in peak times there’s never enough room to study in the Sub if you’re just a lonely single so we end up in the libraries sulking
3) better architecture/design/communications and (dare i say) clearly defined corporate identity
4) UBC is expensive now. Some of us need all the help we can get. Check out the People’s Potato at Concordia. That’s an incredible student government service.
5) Events. Events is number 5. It’s totally important. Get the little bands. Better yet, get CITR to run them. And of course, provide cheap drinks. That goes without saying
tim. i never went to ams events. i care about the ams, but i never went to the events. get maxwell maxwell to plan the events. they’d be great.
sorry i keep treating you like you’re on ams council. but i do still feel like you’re someone with sway and someone with an opinion that matters, and during your term (s-?) cultivated a cordial enough relationship with the university (that is not a bitchslap) that permits you to speak with some resonance.
here’s the priority list
1) food/drink/water – hey, if the AMS gave away free coffee or tea in the morning, I’d come upstairs. The Sub needs a supermarket that’s bigger than Sprouts to be relevant
2) something that resembles the Ridington Room before it went away. in peak times there’s never enough room to study in the Sub if you’re just a lonely single so we end up in the libraries sulking
3) better architecture/design/communications and (dare i say) clearly defined corporate identity
4) UBC is expensive now. Some of us need all the help we can get. Check out the People’s Potato at Concordia. That’s an incredible student government service.
5) Events. Events is number 5. It’s totally important. Get the little bands. Better yet, get CITR to run them. And of course, provide cheap drinks. That goes without saying
Anon 12:23 –
I’ve never heard of the People’s Potato. Care to summarize?
Anon 12:23 –
I’ve never heard of the People’s Potato. Care to summarize?
http://services.csu.qc.ca/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=50&page=1
it’s pretty simple. the student society provides free meals five days a week to students through volunteerism and by donation. i’ve partaken. the food is hearty but filling. does the sub have cooking facilities open for student use?
i find the food choice lacking in the sub. surely government peeps can attest to what eating at the pit window on a regular basis does for one’s general disposition. not to mention bowel movements.
http://services.csu.qc.ca/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=50&page=1
it’s pretty simple. the student society provides free meals five days a week to students through volunteerism and by donation. i’ve partaken. the food is hearty but filling. does the sub have cooking facilities open for student use?
i find the food choice lacking in the sub. surely government peeps can attest to what eating at the pit window on a regular basis does for one’s general disposition. not to mention bowel movements.
Just a point of clarification re: electoral turnout. The AMS is still on the low side. An acceptable range for comparably sized student societies (by that I mean scope of operations and numbers of people involved) is 4500-6000 students voting. That can fluctuate depending on a lot of things and can mean a wide-ranging voter turnout in percentage terms. Alberta gets substantially higher turnout in numbers and that translates to 20-25% turnout. It’s also a commuter campus but its council has the ability to make a lot of decisions so people see it as relevant. I really think the way the AMS bylaws prevent the executive and council from making big, meaningful decisions means people don’t take these elections seriously.
Just a point of clarification re: electoral turnout. The AMS is still on the low side. An acceptable range for comparably sized student societies (by that I mean scope of operations and numbers of people involved) is 4500-6000 students voting. That can fluctuate depending on a lot of things and can mean a wide-ranging voter turnout in percentage terms. Alberta gets substantially higher turnout in numbers and that translates to 20-25% turnout. It’s also a commuter campus but its council has the ability to make a lot of decisions so people see it as relevant. I really think the way the AMS bylaws prevent the executive and council from making big, meaningful decisions means people don’t take these elections seriously.